Div back to school?
19/06/2012 in Uncategorized
Now this is some good news on a few fronts..PDivy is going back to school . It does leave me wondering though about how it is that the guy who coached the Boks didn’t have so many wonderful offers thrown at him after his stint. Instead he finds himself coaching a University team. This is either some serious forward thinking on his behalf as the drive to increase the rivalry and popularity of the game at that level continues and more money is thrown that way…or he really is that unpopular that no Super Team or any other international club would want to make him an offer he couldn’t resist?
UWC has in many instances been left behind by the historical development that has occured at the other two University’s and I rekon PDivy might draw some attention to them. Just wonder whether this will evenb out the racially polarised university rugby club situation. With Maties and UCT drawing the majority white players and UWC the majority black players..Ironicaly I am both a Matie and an Ikey and have yet to study at UWC…
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
At least he has gone into coaching, unlike Jake the Snake who did nothing except criticise PdV for four years before taking the Brumbies job.
hanjooveres said on 19/06/2012
I am also amazed that Divvy wasn’t snapped up by some test or SR team. he’s a class act, had relative success with the Springboks, and there is no doubt his 4year stint at test level has been a learning curve and he now possesses invaluable experience
Labachtanai said on 19/06/2012
Remember Jake was coaching the Lions, LOL.
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
and taking them to the top of the Aus conf, nice one Jake!
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
No he didn’t.
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
So give PdV four years post-Boks too.
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
I am afraid its an indication of Div’s lack of ability at senior rugby level,
a nice guy, bit nothing more than a high school/ varsity/club coach
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
I am just trying to figure out how that type of experience gets one relatively nowhere?
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@H&P I don’t think you can just discount his experience and the fact that he got all the way to the top..is it as simple as that? He didn’t crack the nod at senior level?
hanjooveres said on 19/06/2012
we don’t know that H&P, he has coached the baby boks with success before too, he can’t be that useless
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@Baylion..True. I think it is really going to benefit the way people look at UWC on the whole..and will do wonders for the rugby as well…
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
Jake was involved in various buss ventures after the 2007 WC, including consulting with Japanese and Euro clubs, “coaching” coaches, consulting at Varsity club level. (mates of mine worked with him with the Madibaz), his rugby website, etc, etc
he never sat at home whining that no one has approached him…..
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@Hanjo…my point exactly..
Labachtanai said on 19/06/2012
Apologies, his company Jake White’s Winning Ways was involved there somewhere.
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP I don’t think PDivy was whining at home…I’m surprised no one has been dining him away from home?? He must have something to have been the coach of the Boks..
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
No, he just continued to criticise PdV and offer himself as a replacement.
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
He was hired to do an assessment.
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
More like Jake Whites Whinning Ways
Labachtanai said on 19/06/2012
Okay, my mistake – the Keo popularity train made it look like they were in charge there when Muir was coach…
Labachtanai said on 19/06/2012
@CF: hahahaha
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
I think PdV big mistake was to become so focused on the World Cup after the B&I Lions tour that he lost sight of winning the other tests to the point of using a third rate Bok side in the 3N last year.
Even so, his coaching record is still one of the better Bok coach records at 62%, not that it’s good when compare to All Black coaches.
Since readmission:
John Williams 1992[168] 20%
Ian McIntosh 1993–1994[169] 33%
Kitch Christie 1994–1996[170] 100%
Andre Markgraaff 1996[171] 61%
Carel du Plessis 1997[172] 37%
Nick Mallett 1997–2000[173] 71%
Harry Viljoen 2000–2002[174] 53%
Rudolph Straeuli 2002–2003[175] 52%
Jake White 2004–2007[176] 67%
Peter de Villiers 2008–2011[177] 62%
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@LT you know what happened to Keo, apparently he left a trail of the white stuff on his upper lip..and so gave his game away…but don’t believe everything you read in the media..it’s confirmed they do some alternative meditation..
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
As far as I know Keohane was in partnership with him then
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@Baylion thanks for the stats…think with that level of objectivity one has to ask the question about why he is overlooked..
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
Hey Hanjo, I maintain coaching junior level is a lot less technical a more about bringing out the best on lads , ie player management, Div is not bad at this.
But he got a bit lost in the highly technical landscape of Senior rugby , just listen to what Bismarck had to say……all the calls and drills are new under Meyer.
Div just took over with what drills and calls Jake had in place, and carried on,
unfortunately 4 years later that only gets you to a QF in the WC, and no further , this = fail.
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@Baylion…the problem was that he was so far stuck up White’s behind…he believed everything that all white substances were good for him..
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
LOL
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
Obviously his lack of PR skills has a lot to do with it.
Labachtanai said on 19/06/2012
@BL: Yip, that is correct and explains all the publicity. I wonder how many teams got involved and how many of them actually won using the “winning ways”?
Labachtanai said on 19/06/2012
@CF: It is all so clear now, how he got all the inspiration for the drivel he wrote…
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
you can’t just look at the %’s
he inherited the nr 1 team in the world, and World champs, filled with young stars.
He left them 4 years later, knocked out in the QF’s of a world cup,
The people who hire coaches judge him based on this, thus ZERO offers from senior teams,
hanjooveres said on 19/06/2012
yes and no. – I agree about that player management seems to be one of his strengths. but he didn’t struggle at senior level imo. he did quite well. almost equalling the winning % of Jake. – yes, the WC wasn’t a success.
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP I disagree I don’t buy into the idea that he was out of his league. The stats as Baylion shows puts him up there in terms of his ability to win..Your personal perception and that created by the media has positioned him as that in your thoughts.
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@Hanjo..check the baylion stats
hanjooveres said on 19/06/2012
that’s also just an opinion H&P, he brought in his fair share of players, not different than what any other new coach would do.
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@Baylion I think he got a raw deal on that..he wasn’t the greatest orator but he did well non the less
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
it’s a simple question – if he was a good Bok coach why has NO senior level team approached him, local or foreign?
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@LT you see I knew these okes were on something..it’s impossible to come up with some of the things they write..
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP there is no good reason…for anyone who is objective
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP so are you saying that Jake White actually got them to the QF? I can’t imagine that Meyer is going to appreciate the fact that he won these last two tests were the result of PDivy??
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
As I said, I think his strategy of focusing on the RWC (and sticking with over-the-hill players for that) was his biggest mistake.
He brought a lot of young players through but tended to stick with the older ones as first choice.
The players he blooded:
WH du Preez
Bandise Maku
Keegan Daniel
Charl McLeod
Dean Greyling
Werner Kruger
Gerhard Mostert
Schalk Brits
Ashley Johnson
Jongi Nokwe
Jean Deysel
Alistair Hargreaves
Lwazi Mvovo
Dewald Potgieter
Bjorn Basson
Deon Stegmann
Odwa Ndungane
Adraan Strauss
Willem Alberts
Juan de Jongh
Francois Louw
Flip van der Merwe
Patrick Lambie
Brian Mujati
Zane Kirchner
Francois Hougaard
Gio Aplon
Heinrich Brussow
Andries Bekker
Beast Mtawarira
Morne Steyn
Of these only Beast and Morne became regular first choices under him.
hanjooveres said on 19/06/2012
and Brussow.
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
@CF – nope that is not what I said , and you know it.
Still waiting for your answer, if he was a good Bok coach why has NO senior level team approached him, local or foreign?
pls don’t say there is no reason, the whole rugby world is biased
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@Bayl I think his strategy of keeping things much the same ultimately cost him. It also left him open to criticism about riding on the back of Whites WC success..
Randy85 said on 19/06/2012
Because of his ability of always being straight forward. Unlike previous coaches and their AB’s, he sheds light on lots of things amongst others how since the first day of his new job he was branded by Saru.
I have no doubt that he will make a huge contribution at UWC…something else HP…
He coached the Junior Boks right? He did very well with them. Won the JWC with them and then parted ways…mostly because SARU could not even offer these players decent facilities…
…then Loffie Eloff took over, they kakked and still he got a bus….
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP you reasoning stands that he has built on the success of white..and did nothing really ensure the % victories that he had.
I would definately consider him based on his experience and his winning ways…that’s my objective stance.
You should answer the question about why you would not want him??
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@REM, I really think its probably the most positive thing to happen at UWC for a long time..and will impact on so many different levels…
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
Other factors play a role too but losing a World Cup costs.
Consider John Mitchell – All Black coach with a 82% winning record but losing the WC cost him.
Coaching jobs after that:
Waikato NPC
Western Force
Lions
Nick Mallet – 71% winning record with the Boks but lost a WC
Then:
Stade Français
Italy
Rudolph Streuli – 52% record and lost a WC
As far as I know no other coaching job after that.
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
No disrespect but I don’t think you rating him, helped him get a job at senior level…..he is not wanted
Like I have said, Div’s seems like a good guy, solid junior level coach, but out of his depth at senior rugby, especially when compared to Rassie, Meyer and Jake
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@Bayl winning a WC is really what these coach’s are after. I won’t buy into the idea that Meyer doesn’t have one eye on the WC as well. I think as you point out..PDivy didn’t seperate himself enough through his selections that took him to the WC
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP, non taken. How many years did PDivy coach the senior national rugby team?
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
No, PdV normally went with Schalk before Brussouw
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
I know he coached the Valke and he was appointed coach of the Spears (never took off), then he appeared as Bok coach,
BayLion will Google the exact stats for you
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
Of PdV boys the following are in the current Bok squad (and others should have been)
Keegan Daniel
Dean Greyling
Werner Kruger
Lwazi Mvovo
Bjorn Basson
Adraan Strauss
Willem Alberts
Flip van der Merwe
Patrick Lambie
Zane Kirchner
Francois Hougaard
Gio Aplon
Andries Bekker
Beast Mtawarira
Morne Steyn
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP you need to answer the question still
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
From Wikipedia:
He coached amateur club Tygerberg in 1996 and 1997, and the Western Province Disas in 1997.
In 1998, he enjoyed his first major appointments as assistant coach for Western Province in the Currie Cup and also the South Africa national under-19 side, which he took to third in the 1999 Under 19 Rugby World Championship.
He took the Falcons through the 2002 and 2003 Currie Cup campaigns before going on to coach the South Africa national under-21 rugby union team between 2004 and 2006.
In the 2004 Under 21 Rugby World Championship, South Africa finished third, but won in 2005 and came second in 2006.
In 2007, De Villiers was appointed coach of the Emerging Springboks and led them to the title of the 2007 Nations Cup.
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@Bayl and then HP is focussed on what he perceives to be a lack of experience
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
08 – 11
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
@CF , where did i mention experience as an issue?
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP…And now Jake White’s experience at senior level prior to taking up the WC job? And refer to Bayls wiki info up above..
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
@CF , I said:
“Like I have said, Div’s seems like a good guy, solid junior level coach, but out of his depth at senior rugby, especially when compared to Rassie, Meyer and Jake”
“I maintain coaching junior level is a lot less technical a more about bringing out the best on lads , ie player management, Div is not bad at this.
But he got a bit lost in the highly technical landscape of Senior rugby ,”
…..no mention of experience
hanjooveres said on 19/06/2012
can’t really say that, as Burger, Brussow and Smith were rarely all available for selection at the same time
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP you intimated that he senior temas aren’t approaching him for jobs..
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP, so explain why the comparison between junior and senior level rugby if not to highlight a perceived lack of experience
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
Jake White:
- Parktown Boys’ High School First XV
- Jeppe Boys High First XV
- provincial schools coach
- Later he coached various under-19 and under-21 sides
- coached under-21 Springbok side to a victory in the U-21 Rugby Union World Cup in 2002
- assisting Springbok squad preparations by doing video analysis for them
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
yes, because he is not a good enough, …..no relation to experience…..
Anonymous said on 19/06/2012
PDV wasn’t getting offers because of a few factors, I think.
Most teams look for people like Jake White, Rassie and Heynecke because of their extensive technical knowledge of the game, the type of guys who scrutinise stats and very fine details. PDV is more of a people’s person. He has an overall perspective of the game and approaches it like that. These days, people are impressed by number-crunching and technical vocabularies.
Secondly, I think the way PDV was portrayed as Bok coach was always going to be against any future prospects he may have had. Granted, he wasn’t the best at PR and often shot himself in the foot. But Saru, we the public, and media could have helped that situation by not further perpetuating the ‘clown-like’ image that was being portrayed locally and to the rest of the world. I mean, for one, how childish was it to make fun of his voice? Some people based their perceptions of him solely on that pathetic basis.
I hope he has success at UWC and can transfer that passion he has for rugby through to the players and all involved.
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
@CF are you serious, do I need repeat myself again:
“I maintain coaching junior level is a lot less technical a more about bringing out the best on lads , ie player management, Div is not bad at this.
But he got a bit lost in the highly technical landscape of Senior rugby ,”
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@KzR you touch on many key points. I think his record as a coach speaks for itself..the other aspects have done his career a disservice
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP, I am not sure what you are basing that statement on??
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP please do explain the technical landscape?
lmyburgh said on 19/06/2012
@CF, lets just agree to disagree and leave it there
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
His record says otherwise, HP.
Had he kept his mouth shut and used someone else to face the media things could have turned out differently.
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@HP always happy to agree to that..
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
I agree. His record isn’t bad but his PR was atrocious at times.
Baylion said on 19/06/2012
Maybe I looked at the # of tests played but then he has been injured a lot too.
Heinrich: 20 tests | 17 starts | 3 subs
Schalk: 30 tests | 27 starts | 3 subs
Juan: 28 tests | 28 starts
Corner_Flag said on 19/06/2012
@Bayl, that’s where you need to know your strengths and play the game..
Labachtanai said on 19/06/2012
@ HP: How many real approaches was made to Jake White the year immediately after he finished as Bok coach? And he won the RWC. All the news was about what he was going to do, but was it not just Keo and his spindoctors?
Labachtanai said on 19/06/2012
They went out of their way to discredit PdV – obsessively so – and then things went sour between them and Jake and they had no other option than to keep going. Otherwise they would have looked like fools. They did manage to cloud people’s opinions to the level that leaders like John Smit and Victor Matfield were discreditied the moment they wrote or said something in his defence…
provincefan2 said on 20/06/2012
Just remember… Jake White ended up coaching koshuis at Maties after the Lions debacle